Post by mynameismattbaum on May 15, 2017 19:52:19 GMT -6
Look, I'm not trying to whip up a fire storm here but I'm curious what you think about reading comics by creators with politics you don't agree with. For instance, this week I reviewed Bane Conquest written by Chuck Dixon who also subsequently adapted a book to graphic novel, a conspiratorial treaties about the Clintons called Clinton Cash. The book itself was the stuff of Alex Jones' wet dreams, but, I'm willing to separate the man from the art. When it comes to comics that is. I'm curious where you nerds come down on this?
Post by HouseWayne on May 15, 2017 21:50:45 GMT -6
I've been gone from the show for a while for this very reason. When it to "separate person from the art", it's a privilege. It's not a privilege that most people of color, LGBT or women, have. I cant speak for all but as a person of color, I will not support a person who supports oppression. No matter what it looks like. When Frank Miller created his book, "Holy Terror" with so much undertone of xenophobia and hate. Many weren't saying, "let's separate the man from the art". They were flat out calling him xenophobic. They stopped buying and reading his work.
It's no different than people who stop watching Mel Gibson's films because of his hateful words towards the black and Jewish community.
If a person shows their colors and want to spread propaganda then I'll take my leave of their work. I do not and will not cloud my life, emotions or mind with the work of a hateful artist/creator.
I have zero urge to see, The Art of Nazi Germany and I'm not comparing these comic creators to Nazi's. I'm saying supporting hate and oppression is one in the same. It may have different faces but hate is hate and I'll never give my money to hate. Ever.
Post by briandomingos on May 16, 2017 6:42:45 GMT -6
Great question, Matt.
I think, like many people in your life, it depends on who it is and what they said/did.
I don't like when creators I enjoy do not share my views but it doesn't completely taint my enjoyment of their work (unless it's something majorly egregious). I would never go out of my way to read a creator-owned book by Van Sciver but I'm fine with reading his pages of DC REBIRTH or CONVERGENCE. I think Dixon is a dinosaur and has some stupid political views but I still picked up GRIFTER/MIDNIGHTER, because, I like the characters and I wanted to show DC I supported the title. I have been disappointed by learning that a creative-type has differing opinions but I have also been completely energized by learning "oh thank god he is not an idiot, too."
Post by BlackScorpionIII on May 16, 2017 11:52:08 GMT -6
I'm with HouseWayne on this. When the bad stuff is on the written page, I will flatly reject it. Don't wanna immerse myself in that junk. When the bad stuff is behind the scenes, things get a little trickier- in part because I don't know a lot of these people and in part because so many great artists over time were awful. Woody Allen ruined Woody Allen movies for me. Chris Benoit ruined Chris Benoit matches for me. I can't unsee them in their work. I throw my hands in the air when I see Chuck Dixon's work because I have difficulty knowing precisely how to act. I don't want to give Chuck Dixon my money and I don't have to. But this is where things tie into my overall stance on good comic writing. Sorry if you've heard this rant before, but:
I think good comic writing is an act of caretaking the world and characters that have a legacy beyond the writer. Greedy writers can give us good stories or a nice arc, but are detrimental to the comics they write for if they insist on making the twist, character alteration, or personal imprint.
Chuck Dixon does not have a personal imprint on his characters. I don't think of the Dixon arcs & milestone moments when I think of Tim Drake or Barbara Gordon. I think about the emotions, judgment, and dialogue of these characters. I can't do the same with Woody Allen or Chris Benoit. I see them in their work. I can't do the same with Scott Snyder. I can't do the same with Nathan Edmondson. (By the way, worth contrasting how Chuck Dixon thinks of Punisher to how Edmondson does. Dixon doesn't think Punisher is a hero to be admired nor emulated.) I've reread Robin while knowing Chuck Dixon's politics, and even when looking for his politics I couldn't find it. So I'm someone that can still read and like a Chuck Dixon story, but I don't give him my money anymore. As for Nathan Edmondson, that dude can eff right off. I think that the "vote with your dollar" sentiment should be a part of our lives and not just when it comes to our media. I try to be aware of and avoid giving money to sweatshop labor, union-busters, gay bashers, oil spillers, animal abusers, etc. I don't have a perfect record. Same goes with my comics.
Post by briandomingos on May 16, 2017 12:05:51 GMT -6
Well said. That's kind of what I mean: Dixon isn't a dick about it and it's not REALLY in his work. The NIGHTWING series was created by Dixon and Scott McDaniel - two guys with conservative views but it never felt like they were preaching. It was straight up entertainment without a particular bent. Maybe it's a generational thing: they are from a different time where work is work and your personal policies aren't important. Now, so much of it is "Personal Voice" and it can hamper the work. Sometimes the intent of "speaking up" is too heavy and it drowns out the storytelling.
I agree about Woody Allen and the like. Somethings are over the line and make it impossible to parse.
Post by HouseWayne on May 16, 2017 12:29:09 GMT -6
Even if I can't see political tones in their work, they still stand for those views. So much like yourself, BlackScorpionIII, I wouldn't give them my money.
I still haven't and can't read, JL8 because of it's creator. I stopped buying Nike shoes until they turned themselves around. I'll never visit another, Hobby Lobby. I understand that most think, "boycotting" doesn't work, but that's the point of conviction.
I may be missing out on the new Action Comics but Dan Jurgens is a jackass and I will never read a superman story written by him. I just can't.
Post by dannyfromia on May 22, 2017 22:26:49 GMT -6
The problem with politics outside of comic books is that the norms have shifted. There was definitely a more conservative tone in golden age comic books. You had that love of country and WWII added on to it (I.e. Captain America). Now, artists take on a more liberal tone following things like a larger LGBTQ presence in America. I don't care about the politics behind the books and I'll read what I like. Sometimes you find yourself gritting your teeth because you hate the opinions of the artist, but you can't deny that there's talent behind them and that stands for itself. But at the end of the day it's your choice 😀
Post by abkfrombozo on May 23, 2017 14:17:30 GMT -6
I've read through this thread probably a dozen times trying to think of something intelligent to contribute and I'm not 100% sure that I've arrived at it just yet, but I wanted to say two things -
1. I think it's so god damn cool to be part of a community like this. Bunch'a nerds, talking 'bout comics books, then BAM - some legit, philosophical discussion that makes me sit down and think about what I think. Thank you guys, this has been really interesting.
2. Aristotle is quoted as saying, "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." Or something like that. How do you guys think this quote relates to the larger discussion? I've always felt that one of comic books strongest functions in our society is that they can (potentially) allow people to try on a way of life, point of view, problem, etc. and gain an understanding and appreciation (or lack thereof) for whatever the theme of the comic was. Please note, I fully acknowledge that, as HouseWayne stated earlier, my point of view is one that's been refined in privilege. And there's also certainly points of view that I don't want to try on regardless of how balanced I want to be (read: ones that do malicious harm to others). Maybe it's a case of voting with your pocket book, as has been brought up already, and letting the dinosaurs die?
Any way, loving all of the responses so far. Hope to hear from more Listenerds!